Talk:Guard Exemplar
Guard Exemplar are for all intents and purposes true battle-brothers, sharing everything with the astartes except the gene-seed. They participate in all the rituals, dine in the same areas, are trained by the same individuals and even adressed as "battle-brother". In adition, special equipment is made for them, all in an effort to bring them closer to a true space marine. In fact, the GE are inspired by Luther and the other False Astartes of the Dark Angels past (something that causes a lot of friction with the Dark Angels themselves). No other chapter knows of Luther outside the DE. This is NCF. --Imposter101 (talk) 16:31, November 12, 2014 (UTC) You mean, they don't know what happened to him. But they do know OF him. He was the Lions 2nd in command and a known historical figure. The rest of the Imperium does not nkow of his fall, and proably conside he died in whatever unknown disaster befell Caliban. Unless the Dark Angels somehow purged every historical record in the galaxy, but I never heard of anything like that. TrashMan (talk) 11:29, November 13, 2014 (UTC) These are soace marines and the imperium...they forget who their own daddy is half the time, and the other half they are using flamers to burn a entire library just cuz it had one book in it, and the book wasn't even heretical. Also take into account that this is a large galaxy (unlike the tiny star wars one) this galaxy is so massive that the admech, the most accurate human database in existence has massive gaps in the most basic data, such as what was the next duty station of a magos after his last assignment 80 years ago. Cookies if you know what book i just refrenced. And again it's 40k the existance of the grey knights...a huge and almost freaking obvious chapter is such a secret you can count to groups that know it exists one your hands. Allow me a demonstration. This is your body...WITHOUT FIBER! (talk) 19:35, November 13, 2014 (UTC) You are right that things often get lost and forgotten. But which things are lost and forgotten seems largely random, and up to the author. On one hand you still have ancient books lying around, from long before even the Unification Wars. On the other you have events that happened only recently forgotten, or chapters not knowing their history. So while things CAN be forgotten, I don't think it's ever stated anywhere that no one outside of the DA knows Luther existed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, there tons of books and sources out there, I could have missed a vital one. 18:44, November 15, 2014 (UTC) One more thing: I think the limit is not only the quality of recruits, but also the gene-seed stock. If you only plan to make 10 new marines this cycle, and you have have 20 great recruits, only the best 10 get in. The rest become serfs. 18:48, November 15, 2014 (UTC) No chapter hosts its personal human army, which Guard Exemplar is. You can talk about how well known Luther and his stuff were, but this still collides with our canon policy. --Remos talk 09:27, November 16, 2014 (UTC) Luther/DE thing is still NCF. Those documents (if any existed in the first place) likely do not exist. Also, Kor'Pheron, Master of Faith, was genetically enhanced with the best technology available at the time and still did not compare to a Space marine. The gene-seed is implanted at an early age. The idea is inertly NCF. --Imposter101 (talk) 16:12, November 28, 2014 (UTC) Also, as noted by Dog, Space marines who fail die or become Servators. Furthermore; "There are nineteen implanted organs - some of which only work properly (or at all) in the presence of other implants. Therefore the removal, mutation or failure of one organ can affect the precise functioning of the others. Because of this, and the fact that each Chapter's gene-seed belongs to that Chapter alone, different Chapters display different characteristics and use different sets of implants and methods of implantation. Throughout the implantation process the Marine must undergo various forms of conditioning in order for the implanted organs to develop and become part of his physiology.4" Again, still NCF. Still up for deletion. --Imposter101 (talk) 16:18, November 28, 2014 (UTC) @Dog Of War - selfish? I guess artistic freedom is selfish by definition. I don't want to change my writing/vision because you or some think-tank in a littlecorner of the internet doesn't like it? Shocking. Justified criticism is one thing - I have already altered my work multiple time when I saw merit in the criticism. I don't see it here, sorry. @Palguenumber3 - that a mighty big loophole there. "We are going to make them space marines. Someday." Heck the GE are more marines than that force, at least they have SOME implants in them. Guess I can go and say that too. "All these 500 are future scouts. We will make them into space marines...soonish. Give or take a dozen years. Unless they die. And those Exemplars that dies? They totally died, we didn't just fake their death and re-named them. Yup. 500 scouts." @Impostor: "Luther/DE thing is still NCF. Those documents (if any existed in the first place) likely do not exist." - Proof of that claim? "Also, as noted by Dog, Space marines who fail die or become Servators" - that is not a rule. FROM THE WIKI: "Many of these organs are cultured in vitro from the gene-seed, whilst others require that the gene-seed be injected into the Aspirant's body and then grow into a new organ using the implantee's own physiological processes" "In the event of a Chapter suffering disastrous losses of its gene-seed, it may become necessary for the Apothecaries of the Chapter to use test-slaves to breed enough new gene-seed to bring the Chapter rapidly back up to full strength. These test-slaves are always human males, usually the condemned Imperial criminals that would otherwise be turned into Servitors. They are kept inside an artificial environment within the Chapter's fortress-monastery alive and partly conscious, but unable to leave their transparent Plasteel gestation chamber for the full 5-10 year maturation process. Needless to say, this solution is far from ideal, and is regarded as a last option to keep a Chapter alive. This method is also used by the Adeptus Mechanicus to create the large amount of gene-seed necessary for the Founding of a new Chapter since no existing Chapter could spare 1,000 copies of its gene-seed. However, as each Chapter is required to tithe 5% of its gene-seed away to Mars to be checked for purity, it is possible that the Imperium could build up a collection of gene-seed, and Found new Chapters that way en masse." TrashMan (talk) 14:47, December 3, 2014 (UTC) "(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure." You are lacking the consideration of the fact that the community decided rules is done by committee - i.e other people, and want to bypass them for your own work. That means by definition your calls that the rules are unfair are selfish as it is your voice against the majority of the community. --Cheers The Road to Hell [[User talk:Dog of War|''' is paved with good intentions']] 16:04, December 3, 2014 (UTC) No need to quote stuff from 40kWikia, it is plain fanfic and exaggeration to begin with. What do you think we have rules? Just because we can bypass them? Then we could just go without them in the first place. If you think this is so bullshitty stuff we are telling you over and over again, please feel free to create another 40k Fanon wiki. It is your right and in this situation possibly the best solution. When the page gets crowded with Lost Primarchs and Legions, you'll get the reason for our rules and policies, but sure, go for it. The rules stand. You have approx a week to make changes or it'll be all gone and I'll guarantee it will never be restored. --Remos talk 21:02, December 3, 2014 (UTC) trash....your a fool...just putting that out there. I didn't say scout hopefuls i said scout marines. your GE are "were serfs who might one day be scouts." what i pointed out to you REPETITIVELY was that '''scout marines '''lack gene-seed and thus fill a rather obscure but not large loophole of being a space marine in everything BUT the gene-seed which is the final step of becoming a FULL space marine... since your using the wiki use it to look up scout marines since apparently you don't know what they are. now i don't know if you know your space marine chapters, but i actually used a term similar to what the BLACK TEMPLAR use for their scouts equivalents as the scouts in my chapters your dogging in a horrible attempt to justify giving non-SM gene-seed, are preforming the same as what the Black Templar chapters does. Next lets rip appart what you just gave us. so your using your own soldiers giving them Gene-seed, the last thing needed to complete a Space-Marine cultivating Gene-seed in them, and expecting them to function? WTF is your logic, the cultinvated gene-seed in anther person's body the end result is death, to remove gene-seed from a Space Marine is a killing blow in most cases, the Gene-seed itself causes crippling instability as per your own wiki copy paste, in the individual's cultivating it. And might i remind you Luther didn't get "SM" gene-seed, he got his directly from the source the primarch himself, not form a degraded clone of a clone of a clone of the primarch's genetic code. I've up until this point been trying to help you but you've turned aorund each time to only attack me. now i might as well do you a favor by helping show you just how NCF of a page you have and how your arguements in self defense are baseless speculation with no grounding even in the wikia you're drawing your supposed facts from.Allow me a demonstration. This is your body...WITHOUT FIBER! (talk) 21:13, December 3, 2014 (UTC) @Dog of War - going against the majority is wrong? The majority cannot be wrong? Sorry, I cannot belive that. I'm strongly auti-authoritarian and for diversity. Is it so wrong to believe the policy to be wrong? I cannot force change, nor do I want to force anything. In my mind, a rigid obessesion with purity ultimatively only leads to stagnation/isolation. If you want to talk numbers, my chapter was revied by the Bolter and Chainsword. That's thousand of 40K lore geeks going over it and finding it OK. Who's the minority now? I bet there's plenty of people who'd like to contribute to your wiki, but decide not to because it would require too big of a sacrifice to their concept. Likewise there may be people who decide to "bend their knee" and alter their idea to fit you views, simpley because they have no alternative. Both an equal loss IMHO. @Remos - expections prove the rules. And 40K is full of them. Hypothetical: Let's say the Lors of Terran and the heads of Inquisition themselves created a chapter and OK it's use of 1000 human soldiers. Still against canon? Still wrong? @Plaguenumber3 - I'm not attcking you. I'm disagreeing with you. Like I said before, there is a difference between "this is totally impossible and not supported by canon" and "improbable but could work". And no, scout marines do get gene-seed. It takes roughly 2 years for the process to complete IIRC, but they immeditely start recieving it. And removal of the progenoid gland is non lethal (for one of them at least). Luther also didn't get any gene-seed, since he was way to old. He got "normal" genetic modifications. With so many errors, it's no wonder I doubt your counsel. TrashMan (talk) 19:28, December 4, 2014 (UTC) Let me tell you that the measures taken to implement these rules took in a lot of community consideration. If you feel the rules impend your creativity then your creativity is rather limited - I wanted a Space Marine chapter with a primarch, and be first founding, but, as I can't have that, I have made my space marines with accordance with this site. Besides, don't kid yourself that you are being "anti-authoritarian" in this matter - since when did authoritarianism take in consideration the thoughts of the people? The community have stated numerous times that your article is NCF, so either accept it, or leave the site for Bolter and Chainsword, who, btw, have different rules to us. Or go on another fanon 40k wiki as Khaelel suggested. --Cheers The Road to Hell [[User talk:Dog of War|' is paved with good intentions']] 20:47, December 4, 2014 (UTC) I don't honestly get your point because that sentence of yours makes no sense. Well, anyway. I think we all are on the line of getting pretty mad at the moment, let's just chill out a little. Trashman has his time limit to fix his stuff, there is no need to throw gasoline in the fire at the moment (yes Plague, I'm speaking to you). And if not, then the article gets deleted. We are all bound by the rules we've agreed when contributing here for the first time, canon policy is part of those rules, the end. --Remos talk 23:14, December 4, 2014 (UTC) Lost primarchs are problematic to say the least, and are implied to be dead unles I'm mistaken. There are degrees to everything. A lost primarch MIGHT work (if VERY well written), but the problem arises when you have 100 people who all have the same idea, and there are only 2 lost primarchs. So that was VERY shaky ground to begin with. My initial draft suffered from Mary Sue syndrome, but other than that was pretty normal. Honestly, 500 human soliders are perfectly workable in canon, and to be honest, at this point it '''doesn't feel to me' (emphasis) as we're disussing compatiblity with canonicity or plausabiltiy at all, but strict rules layering. And at that point it feels like the entire point of a fan wiki (to collect and share fan-made articles) falls into the background, which it shouldn't. I asked if anyone knows of other good 40K fan wiki's for a reason. There is a limit to how much I'm willing to compromise my vision (as pompous as it sounds), and right now, I'm at the edge. I want to be part of this wiki, but the price just may be too damn high. TrashMan (talk) 07:50, December 5, 2014 (UTC) My bad, just remembered, (that another) 40k Fanon Wiki was created basically for the same reasons as you are giving up now. I think there was actually another one too... but I can't recall it at the moment. --Remos talk 12:55, December 5, 2014 (UTC) Thank you. I was asking around on B&C for advice and was pointed to another wiki and immediately went there. It turned out it was a CANON wiki and I lost na hour first putting the articles up, then tearing them down. Talk about embaressment. That will teach me to trust, but verify fist. Still on the fence. I'm probably going to make my final decision in the last second, as i usually do. Oh, please don't take this he wrong way when I mention this (I probably shouldn't), but after I brought this up, B&C people started poking holes in your rules. Some have advised me to stear clear of this wiki. Hell hath no fury like debates among fans. TrashMan (talk) 12:51, December 6, 2014 (UTC) Poking holes into our rules just for the sake of it for sure. Well, I have never more than glimpsed B&C but considering it is a forum... I wouldn't really go for it. In my experience all forums have somewhat bad and trolly userbase and in-site habitants. Njah, maybe I've just roamed wrong forums for my life! --Remos talk 16:15, December 6, 2014 (UTC) I've been a member of B&C for a while. They are anal in their own way, but generally a nice community. I had a lot of lore buffs help me with making my chapters IA. Pages and pages of dissusing details. It's thanks to their help that it is what it's now. Actually, the Guard Exemplar and the Luther angle are kinda "their" idea. TrashMan (talk) 22:21, December 6, 2014 (UTC) No one cares. --Imposter101 (talk) 22:34, December 6, 2014 (UTC) I'm sure B&C are a nice community, but they operate by their rules. Here you are under our community rules, and their opinion frankly is null in this debate. Short of Games Workshop/Black Library/Forge World giving you the thumbs up no outside source here matters. --Cheers The Road to Hell [[User talk:Dog of War|''' is paved with good intentions']] 23:15, December 6, 2014 (UTC) Made a final edit. Guard Exemplar are now enhanced combat serfs whose purpose is defending PK outposts and assets. They hold the fort while the astartes are away. TrashMan (talk) 15:42, December 9, 2014 (UTC) You've addressed none of the issues that have made the article NCF. --Imposter101 (talk) 16:04, December 9, 2014 (UTC) In four weeks you managed to cry around about how unfair we are on this site, claim that you leave us because there are so much better communities and sites all around, undermine admins's work and users' opinions. But you couldn't fix the article, do you think this is some joke? If the damn chapter has never shared the secrets of the Unforgiven, how could they possibly know about Luther and his companies? Your childish bluster about your rights to write whatever you want has now costed you your article, how can it be so hard to grasp about that "no non-Astartes troops" and do as it is wished on this site? You don't go in your friend's house and just do what you please there. Why? Because that is called "manners" or even "etiquette". But for some strange reason it just disappears when you get on internet. I want to believe you are just a nice fellow who wants to write some stuff and just happened to post it on wrong site, but at the moment this all seems more like a huge trolling incident to me. Template stays. Article gets removed tomorrow if nothing is done during the night. --Remos talk 16:45, December 9, 2014 (UTC) Grattis. I've liked it from the beginning anyway. --Remos talk 10:12, December 10, 2014 (UTC) What? How does it NOT adress the issue? 1) The GE are combat serfs that sit at home defending the monastery. Against what rule is that? 2) The Phoenix Knights are the sucessors of Dark Angels, they would know some basic history. Furthermore, at no point is the existance of Luthor being known (as a historical figure) cofirmed as non-canonical ANYWHERE. If I'm wrong on that one, I'd like for you to point me to the specific canonical source, because I sure as hell never found it. No, your word that it's non-canonical is not enough. I don't operate on trust anymore, got burned too many times. 3) Not that it means anything, but you don't come off as rainbow and sunshine either. TrashMan (talk) 12:55, December 10, 2014 (UTC) I'm not very familiar with the issue, but I don't see any reason against having the Guard Exemplar as being serfs who defend the assets of the Astartes Chapter in the absence of the Astartes themselves. The following is a quote from the Warhammer 40,000 wiki: "''However, most Chapter Serfs are still trained in the martial arts to levels at least equivalent to that of a standard Imperial Guardsman, and are expected to assist in the defence of Chapter assets such as fortresses and vessels if the need arises." It can be found on the page titles "Chapter Serf". Forgot the signature.BrotherRaven (talk) 17:09, December 10, 2014 (UTC)